Gaspard Estrada — Since your re-election to the presidency in October 2022, what has changed in your country’s foreign policy compared to the previous government? What have been the major shifts?
Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva — 2023 was a year of reconstruction for Brazil as a whole. In terms of foreign policy, my main task has been to bring our country back into the world, reviving our universalist vocation and our commitment to peace and international law. My predecessor’s government favored an isolationist vision: this damaged both the country’s image and its ability to exert influence on major global issues, such as climate change, the fight against the health crisis, security and peace and, of course, human rights.
G. E. — Have relations with other countries changed since your return?
L. I. L. S. — My government immediately sought to restore relations with our regional environment, namely South America, Latin America and the Caribbean. My first international trip marked Brazil’s reintegration into the Community of Latin American and Caribbean States (CELAC), with visits to Argentina and Uruguay. Also in 2023, in May, I organized a meeting of South American presidents. The event was of considerable significance: the parties concerned had not met for many years. It enabled us to agree that our common interests far outweighed our temporary political differences. At the same time, Brazil was able to re-establish relations with strategic partners who had been irresponsibly mistreated: I’m thinking of the United States, China and European countries such as France, Spain and Portugal. In August, I visited the African continent, one of my other foreign policy priorities, with a stopover in South Africa for the BRICS summit, another in Angola and finally, participation in the summit of the Community of Portuguese-speaking Countries (CPLP) in Sâo Tomé and Principe.
G. E. — You mentioned the major international issues on the agenda, including environmental protection and the promotion of development. How is Brazil making its voice heard?
L. I. L. S. — We have regained our leadership role in the environmental field by abandoning climate denial and regaining our credentials thanks to very serious national policies in the fight against deforestation. The Belém summit in August 2023, which we hosted, proved a great success: an unprecedented process was set in motion, with forest countries playing a leading role in discussions on deforestation and climate change. At COP-29 in Dubai, we submitted a proposal for payment for the ecosystem services provided by our forests. In 2025, the COP will take place in Belém, so we’re getting ready to host this event with pride.
Generally speaking, Brazil’s foreign policy is geared to the goals of reindustrialization, and promotes equitable and sustainable development. We ended the year by taking over the presidency of the G20, with the priority of reducing inequalities, both those that undermine societies internally and those that separate countries. We are working to bring the G20 agenda closer to the interests of the South, with the fight against hunger and poverty, the fight against climate change and the reform of international governance in our sights.
G. E. — What geopolitical issues do you prioritize today? What mark would you like Brazil to make on the international stage?
L. I. L. S. — As I said, one of our top priorities is inequality. This continues to grow, in the wake of the multiple crises that beset us: the Covid-19 pandemic, climate change, food insecurity, fuel poverty... Let’s keep this indicator in mind: in the last four years alone, the wealth of the world’s richest men and women has soared by 114%, while 60% of the population - 5 billion people - has become poorer. Sustainable development goals have been set, but progress is both insufficient and too slow, hence the urgent need to raise awareness of the need to fight relentlessly to reduce inequalities.
G. E. — Does this reflect the failure of economic policies as a whole?
L. I. L. S. — Neoliberalism has exacerbated the economic and political inequalities that plague democracies. Declining levels of social protection and increasing job insecurity have left people without hope. They have also made them susceptible to the rhetoric of far-right adventurers, the very people who deny politics and sell easy, false solutions. Sadly, I fear that a growing number of countries are succumbing to the temptation to replace neoliberalism with conservative, authoritarian nationalism, a source of threats to individual freedoms and minority rights.
G. E. — Why is it that concerted action by the players involved doesn’t produce more tangible results?
L. I. L. S. — Another major phenomenon is at work: the crisis of multilateralism. International organizations are failing to meet the challenges of our time. Nor are they putting an end to the absurdity of wars. Finally, we are unable to act collectively to tackle the climate crisis. Without massive mobilization of financial and technological resources, there is no way to implement the decisions of the Paris Agreement and the Global Framework for Biodiversity. Rich countries have pledged $100 billion a year in aid to developing countries, but we are still at the promise stage. In this context, the reform of global governance institutions such as the UN Security Council is an essential step towards implementing collective decisions and to correct the distortions that only serve to increase inequalities between countries.
G. E. — What would be Brazil’s added value in the face of this multilateralism that isn’t delivering the expected results?
L. I. L. S. — In the scenario I’ve just described, our role is to build bridges, to defend peace and the right to development. As a major developing country with a historic position as a defender of peace, we have enormous potential to promote the necessary reforms and overcome the crises on the horizon. To do so, our country needs the space that my government is striving to regain.
G. E. — During your second term in office, in 2009 to be precise, Brazil adopted a national defense strategy. Does it need updating? If so, what are its main lines?
L. I. L. S. — My government will be updating this year the national defense policy and strategy up to 2024, in line with our legal commitment. Brazil’s defense objectives include elements that are immutable and others that will evolve according to the international situation and the capabilities we are able to mobilize. I would like to stress one crucial point: the peaceful vocation of the Brazilian people is intact; our country has not waged war against any of its ten South American neighbors for 160 years. This is the result of an ongoing dialogue to resolve problems before they escalate.
G. E. — Brazil may not have gone to war, but it is nevertheless in contact with a world under high tension...
L. I. L. S. — Outside our subcontinent, the geopolitical situation is very worrying. Unlike the first period during which I governed (editor’s note: 2003-10), today there is a real risk of confrontation between major powers, or even the use of nuclear weapons. Our challenge is nothing less than to re-establish diplomatic and political dialogue, knowing that dialogue is not only an exchange between friends, but also with those who disagree with us. As I pointed out at the UN General Assembly, inequality - within nations and between nations - lies at the heart of today’s difficulties. If we want security and stability, we must, I repeat, work harder than ever to reduce inequality. I’m talking about economic inequalities, but also political inequalities, i.e. the total or partial exclusion of part of the international community from decision-making processes. The case of the Palestinians, who live in deplorable conditions and are deprived of an internationally recognized state, is particularly emblematic.
G. E. — The defense industry has become an essential part of the global industrial and economic landscape. What are Brazil’s main objectives in this field? Would you like to develop your cooperation with France - which is already based on a strategic partnership?
L. I. L. S. — The fact that we don’t have any enemies doesn’t prevent us from being perfectly aware of the need to be ready to face up to challenges and ward off threats. We have the fifth largest territory in the world, endowed with considerable mineral, agricultural, water and biodiversity resources. This potential does not prevent us from being vigilant: the Covid pandemic, along with the need for masks and vaccines, revealed the risks of excessive dependence on external supplies.
In the light of these factors, I believe that Brazil needs to build a defense industry compatible with its size and the challenges it faces. The strategic programs designed to strengthen our armed forces are primarily focused on submarines, combat aircraft and armored vehicles. These three segments, which are also three benchmarks in the military arsenal, are our priority in terms of defense industries.
Since 2008, France and Brazil have been working together within the framework of a strategic partnership: the results are visible, underpinned in particular by a far-reaching rapprochement in defense. As proof, President Macron’s visit enabled us to jointly launch the third submarine, the fruit of this Franco-Brazilian cooperation. The construction of a fifth nuclear-powered submarine has already been decided. We absolutely need this type of equipment to ensure the surveillance of our coasts, that part we call the “Blue Amazon”. I am convinced that our two countries must continue to deepen this strategic partnership.
G. E. — What are your priorities for the Brazilian navy, particularly in terms of structuring programs? How does it coordinate with the other armed forces?
L. I. L. S. — Insecurity in the Red Sea demonstrates the importance of navies not only for the protection of riparian countries, but also for the international economy. Brazil has some 8,500 kilometers of coastline in the South Atlantic, which gives us a strong responsibility for the long-term establishment of a zone of peace. We also have a vast inland navigation network, which must be protected from any attempt at destabilization: the presence of the state is indispensable in this respect.
In addition to maintaining a credible fleet of surface vessels, our navy’s fundamental structuring program includes submarines. It is up to the chiefs of staff of our armed forces to articulate the capabilities of the three main forces (air, land and sea) and their specific action plans, under the aegis of our Ministry of Defense.